WJFF - The Local Edition - Special Report

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Tim Bruno: [00:00:00] What were the reasons behind creating this series? And is there a personal reason for you to dedicate this month of November to healing?

Shankar Vedantam: I think in some ways, when we look out at the world, all of us, I think, on a daily basis, are just confronted with the amount of pain and suffering that's out there. I think there's just a ton of hurt in the world today.

It's also the case that, um, this time of year, while it's, it's a, it's a, it's an enjoyable time, it's a pleasant time, it's a time for celebration and for spending time with family and friends, it can also be a bittersweet time for many people. They're reminded of days gone by, of, uh, Of the good old days of people who are once in their lives who are no longer in their lives.

And what we thought we would do in some ways is to pull together a broad range of psychological research and insights and package them together so that these different ideas speak to one another. There isn't a proximate tragedy in my life that has prompted this particular series, but I think like everyone else, I read the news every day and I feel like my heart is [00:01:00] heavy when I watch what I see on television, what I listen to on the radio.

and what I read in newspapers.

Tim Bruno: It does feel that way. I feel it. I've heard it from listeners as well. And certainly this time of year, as you mentioned, is a, is a time when people kind of have this sort of reflection, I guess, normally ingrained into the calendar in some ways, but it does feel heavier this time around.

Um, some of the segments you're talking about are changing the stories you tell about ourselves to how we talk about our lives. Can you explain that to someone who may not be aware of

Shankar Vedantam: what that means? Absolutely. I think, you know, when most of us think about our lives, we experience our lives as, um, you know, happening to us.

So we feel like we are witnessing our lives, we're observing our lives, we're experiencing our lives. And, and of course, this is true, but in some ways, I think we put ourselves in the shoes of, you know, members of an audience who are watching a play unfold on stage. That's the way, that's the approach that many of us have to the way we think about our lives.

Now, while [00:02:00] that's true, it's also the case, uh, that we are not just the audience, but we're also the author of the play that is unfolding on the stage. And this episode, uh, Change Your Story, Change Your Life is speaking to the idea that when we take control of that narrative, In very profound and important ways, we can actually change our mental health and change our well being.

One of the really crucial insights of this episode is that, when you think of all our lives, all of our lives are going to have ups and downs. There are going to be moments of triumph and joy, and there are going to be moments of setback and tragedy. That's going to be inevitable for all of our lives, have these ups and downs.

As you tell the chapters of your story, Do you begin those chapters on a high note and end on a low note? Do you say, you know, I started this wonderful job that I was so excited by, and at the end of the chapter you say, you know, and then I got fired or the company shut down or I lost the job somehow. Um, when you tell your story of your life in this fashion where you're starting on a high note and ending on a low note, you're [00:03:00] Psychologists call this, uh, contamination sequences, where you start out with something wonderful that gets contaminated.

It turns out that you will have poorer mental health and well being than if you tell the same kinds of stories with a redemptive sequence. Uh, and a redemptive sequence is where you're starting out with something is bad, but it ends, the story ends with something being good. So in other words, I Maybe lose my job, uh, and I'm really unhappy about it, or I've lost someone who is very close to me.

But as a result of this happening, uh, some other opportunity has opened itself up. Maybe I have, I'm able to travel more. Maybe I find a new profession. Maybe I get to meet new people. I become a different person. All our lives, of course, have ups and downs. So you can actually break these chapters in any way you want.

You can break the chapters as you're telling the story of your life from positive to negative or from negative to positive. And one of the crucial insights of this episode is that when we tell the chapters of our lives going from negative to positive, we end up with better psychological outcomes than when we tell the stories of our lives as going from [00:04:00] positive to negative.

Tim Bruno: You're also discussing the nature of loss and considering the idea of whether we should try to do away with grief. What do you mean by that?

Shankar Vedantam: Yeah. So I think, you know, we've, we've, we've talked, uh, human beings, I think have wrestled with questions about loss and death for, for centuries. Yeah. And, uh, you know, every culture in the world has, um, has, uh, mechanisms or rituals or Or, or ways in which people try and commune with those who have gone with the dead.

There are remembrances and memorials, there's holidays, there's celebrations, and all these in some ways are ways for us to maintain our connection with people who are in the past. And we see this, you know, going all the way back to ancient Egypt, and we see this in modern times. Um, this episode is a somewhat unusual episode in that it's asking the question.

Whether technology in some ways can help us retain a connection with the people who have gone, [00:05:00] the people who used to be in our lives who are no longer in our lives. And it bases, it's based on the idea that many new forms of AI involve, this is artificial intelligence, involve a kind of AI called a large language model.

And a large language model, essentially, if people have played on the internet with something like chat GPT, you know, allows you to ask the AI a series of questions and the AI is able to give you answers. And there's been a lot of debate about the accuracy and the reliability of those answers. But anyway, many of these large language models are quite impressive.

And this episode looks at the idea of what happens if we build large language models out of people who essentially have gone out of our loved ones. In other words, if we can Given AI access to the thoughts and feelings and writings of the people who in our lives who are very close to us, can we continue to maintain some kind of a relationship with that person via this form of artificial intelligence?

Uh, I think it raises really profound ethical and philosophical questions [00:06:00] besides the technological questions. And I'm most interested to see how listeners process this episode and their feedback to it.

Tim Bruno: And one of the other episodes that popped out at me was the episode where you investigate whether it's really true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Um, I think of the Kelly Clarkson song, which is enthusiastic and makes me feel good after hearing it, but you're actually looking at this idea and testing it.

Shankar Vedantam: Yeah, I think that's right. I think this might be an episode where we're trying to, uh, you know, bust a myth as they would say, um, in, in many countries of the world, but I think this is especially true in the United States.

We, we have a, a vision of people going through suffering and setback and coming out on the other side. Somehow having new powers, new abilities, you know, new wisdom. If you think of almost every superhero movie or superhero trope that we have, you know, you have someone who is an ordinary person who goes through some kind of tragedy or disaster, and they come out the other side with superpowers.

They're able to fly. They're able to climb up the walls of buildings. They're able to do all these superhuman [00:07:00] things. And that same superhero trope, I think, is very common in our psychological understandings of setback and loss. And You know, it's an, it's an interesting idea, and I think it's a, it's meant to often be an inspiring idea.

I think unintentionally, however, it has exactly the opposite effect, because if you are going through tough times, you're going through, you know, a bout of cancer, or you, you're dealing with the loss of a loved one, and, and the societal expectation around you is not just that you are going to survive this thing, but you're going to survive it and come out the other end.

You know, like, like Clark Kent turning into Superman, you know, that places an undue burden on you. And because now you feel like I not only have to survive this, I have to come out the other end being better than I was before. And for the people who don't feel better, you know, three months later, six months later, they start to ask themselves, what's wrong with me?

Everyone else goes through tragedy and they come out being, uh, you know, a superhuman figure. Why can't I do the same thing? So in some ways that episode is trying to challenge this idea that one of the expectations that we should have [00:08:00] going into a loss or one of the expectations we have from loss or tragedy is that we're going to come out the other side feeling better.

And I think we're going to try and make the case. And in some ways that's a counterproductive idea. And having that expectation could actually be damaging to our mental health. Hidden

Tim Bruno: Brain dedicating the month of November to healing 2. 0. Thank you for joining us today and thank you for this series. And, uh, before we go, I'd just like to say we've, I think we've heard from listeners here that they find Hidden Brain soothing and healing as well.

So thank you

Shankar Vedantam: for doing this. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me on today.

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